oppopinion requested

"farscythe - makin da cawfee!" (farscythe) 10/15/2018 at 15:08 • Filed to: None

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snap being the sound yet another spoke in my rear wheel just made..

snapped of at the hub again too.. wich is wierd... 3rd one ive snapped up there

all the others have snapped down rimside.. like they are supposed too

anyhoo... the question is... do i repair the wheel.... or just admit its a go ner and buy a new one

repair being 20-30 bucks... new wheel probably closer to 300

i think its only just been a month since i last had it straightened for a broken spoke....lol

(my riding isnt kind on the bike... but i think the wheel is getting pretty fatigued now)

this month is trying to bankrupt me

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 15:13

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My experience is that once you start breaking spokes the remainder of the spokes are probably not too far off from breaking too. If they are standard J-bend spokes then I would recommend a re-build with 14 gauge (2 mm) spokes and brass nipples on a 3x pattern. In the US this would run about $75 or so but get you a nearly indestructible wheel. Get straight gauge spokes, not the butted ones.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/15/2018 at 15:17

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i know they are j bend and 2 mm sounds bout right too... its a 29 inch wheel and most of the spokes have been replaced by now

tho.... after the last time i fubarred it and had it fixed i dont think it was round anymore... straight... not round

facw > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 15:19

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I’ve lost three on mine, all at the hub. I’ve just gotten them replaced, I figure it is probably going, but doesn’t happen often enough for me to eat the cost of a new rear wheel.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > facw 10/15/2018 at 15:22

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its my primary mode of transport and i hate riding it with a missing spoke (spectacular failure waiting too happen that)

and this is probably the 8th spoke ive lost this year (some of those were crashes tho)

Tripper > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 15:26

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Go for the new wheel, great excuse to go tubeless if you haven’t already:) I’m starting to wonder if I shouldn’t have gone with a “tougher bike” I’m breaking stuff all over the place and have to have my wheel trued often enough to consider buying the tools to DIY. Just during my last ride I broke a grip, tore my saddle, took a bunch of paint off the frame, and you guessed it, knocked my wheel out of true.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 15:26

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Well then you probably need a new rim and a new wheel builder. If you need a new rim then I would just get a new wheel as the rim will be $50-80 and labor and spokes will add another $75. If you have a bad wheel builder then you are just flushing $150 down the drain.

I am incredibly hard on my gear and breaking a spoke has not happened to me in years. Typically it’s a over or under tension ed spoke that breaks.

HammerheadFistpunch > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 15:29

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Sounds like you need a full rebuild. That’s what I would do at least. Highlander’s got the right idea 

TheRealBicycleBuck > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 15:30

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I think you need a new wheel builder. It sounds like the spokes are not properly tensioned. 

ateamfan42 > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 15:32

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I’ve broken at least a dozen spokes on my bike’s rear wheel in the 5 years I’ve owned it. Every single one has broken at the hub. The very first one was probably within a couple months of buying the bike (new). I’m not a small guy, but my riding isn’t anything especially harsh.

One season I broke 6. Eventually the shop I would pay to replace them told me to go away— they were sick of taking my $15 each time I brought in the wheel. So I got my own tools and my own spokes and now I fix them myself (which is what I should have been doing all along).

So far this season I’ve only broken one. So I guess the weak ones might all weeded out. None of the replacement spokes have ever broken— only the original spokes seem to break (cheap Chinese construction?). (The original spokes are black, and all the replacements have been chrome, so it is easy to tell which are still original.)

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > TheRealBicycleBuck 10/15/2018 at 15:40

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That was my thought as well. A well made wheel should not be breaking spokes like this.

TheRealBicycleBuck > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/15/2018 at 15:54

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Jobst Brandt , an engineer and the author of “The Bicycle Wheel,” disagrees with you. He says double-butted spokes are just as strong.

https://yarchive.net/bike/spokes.html

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Tripper 10/15/2018 at 15:57

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i went tubeless before... hated it.. switched back to tubes

in case of flat i can swap a new one in in under 5 minutes.. fix the old one when i get home and drop it back in me bag of spares

i like things this way

HammerheadFistpunch > TheRealBicycleBuck 10/15/2018 at 16:00

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They are as strong in tension but they are more likely to have structural defects. Its also my experience that the tension required for a laterally stiff wheel is higher, putting them closer to the breaking point of that spoke.  He’s right though, in theory they are just as strong and more than strong enough given the distributed loads.  That being said...you have to have a good wheelsmith that will tension balance after truing.  

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/15/2018 at 16:00

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my wheel builder *should* be ok... but they have a lot of staff and i guess experience between them may vary quit a lot

this wheel has been hard as a rock for 3 years.. but in the 2 since its starting to fall apart... cogs and brake disc are practically brand new.. sooo.. im thinking new wheel and swapping that stuff over

thanks for the tips mate :)

HammerheadFistpunch > ateamfan42 10/15/2018 at 16:01

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You also may have had a crap wheelsmith at the shop.  Most shops (I’ve worked at 4) true by feel or sound.  This is crap.  Any shop worth its salt is using a tensiometer.  

TheRealBicycleBuck > HammerheadFistpunch 10/15/2018 at 16:03

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Jobst’s understanding is based on testing. He does discuss manufacturer quality and even points out how spoke manufacturers have to be cognizant of how the holes in hubs are being finished so they can set the head angle properly to prevent breakage.

I think everyone agrees that a good wheelbuilder is crucial to success. 

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > TheRealBicycleBuck 10/15/2018 at 16:04

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you are probably right.... mine should be good... but they have a lot of staff and im sure some of them are pretty much noobs...

only other option i have is the specialized dealer and hes even more pricey... and my experience with their wheel building hasnt been great either...

i need a good mom and pops mountainbike shop

(i have a great mom and pop shop for me granny bikes... but mountainbikes and discbrakes seem to be their kryptonite)

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > ateamfan42 10/15/2018 at 16:06

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i really do need to get me own tools for that jobbie

*adds to list*

HammerheadFistpunch > TheRealBicycleBuck 10/15/2018 at 16:07

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M y experience is also based on testing. I’ve built many a wheel in my day, from bomber to racing. I’m actually a barnett certified wheelsmith.  

TheRealBicycleBuck > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 16:08

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Sounds like it’s time to start fresh. Find a good wheelbuilder this time around. Many manufactured wheels are machine-built and the spoke tensions are too low from the factory. Part of the bike building process is checking and adjusting spoke tensions. I’ve seen many shops that don’t bother to do this.

The rear wheel on my mountain bike wasn’t properly tensioned and I tacoed it on a bad bunny-hop. I had my shop build me a new wheel. Despite my fat ass and crappy techni que, that wheel is still going strong nearly two decades later.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > TheRealBicycleBuck 10/15/2018 at 16:11

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hmmm.. sounds like that may be the way to go... ill see if theres anything near me that comes recomended

ateamfan42 > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 16:12

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i really do need to get me own tools for that jobbie

You don’t need much: A chain whip, a socket for the sprocket lock ring, and optionally a spoke wrench. I got some cheap ones on Amazon and they do the trick.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > ateamfan42 10/15/2018 at 16:14

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yeah i know.. tbh the reason i dont have the tools is coz i think trueing a wheel is a pain in the arse jobbie and id rather pay someone else to deal with it...

its getting pretty pricey now tho

BJ > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 16:28

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I had 6 broken spokes on my bike’s rear wheel (never noticed it when it happened). And then m y bike got stolen, so I didn’t have to learn how to fix anything!

TheRealBicycleBuck > HammerheadFistpunch 10/15/2018 at 16:30

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Too bad farscythe isn’t in the states!

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > BJ 10/15/2018 at 16:33

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O.o... im impressed it was still rideable with 6 broken spokes

BJ > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 16:38

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They were spread around, I guess...

ateamfan42 > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 16:41

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i think trueing a wheel is a pain in the arse jobbie

Look at it as an opportunity to teach yourself a new skill....

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > BJ 10/15/2018 at 16:42

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lol tbh...soon as my wheel loses one i feel it

maybe i have an overly sensitive ass

(im also not counting the spoke that snapped and embedded itself in my leg somehow.... i really really felt that one)

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > ateamfan42 10/15/2018 at 16:43

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oh i know how to... thats why i think its a pain in the arse lol

but i think i should start doing it myself for the sake of monies if nothing else

Future next gen S2000 owner > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 17:11

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You can pick up a new Schwinn at Walmart for half that.*

*I’m not exactly a biking enthusiast.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/15/2018 at 17:18

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lol this is true... but you get what you pay for... and you pay through the nose if you really ride a cheap bike.... those thing will break constantly

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 17:28

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I have a 29 inch wheel with a 135mm QR hub in my garage that I would just give to you but you are in some foreign country so sorry you don’t get free wheel.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/15/2018 at 17:29

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lol no worries mate.. post n packaging probably wouldnt be much less than a new wheel from all the way over there :)

Tripper > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 17:45

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Good to know, I’m still on tubes and was only considering tubeless because everyone is telling me that tubeless is what’s hot in the streets (or on the trail as the case may be).

What sucks about them? I too have no problem changing a tube and always ride with a pack, so I have room for spares.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 17:48

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Ouch. It being used and having a flat spot in it makes it less desirable .

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Tripper 10/15/2018 at 17:50

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im pretty puncture prone and the foamy puncture fixer upper thingie for tubeless really makes a mess of your rims

im also not a big fan of the regular sealant option...

i think this may just be a case of me not liking the fancy new option

being old n stubborn here

Future next gen S2000 owner > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 17:50

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If you just let it sit in the garage and only use it a couple times a year, they never break! The trick is to just never really ride the bike.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever 10/15/2018 at 17:53

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lol yeah... postage is no joke :p

ill go find me a good builder locally :)

Tripper > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 18:00

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Seems like I need to do some research here. I have no idea how they work, but it sounds messy. I have this mental picture of just a tire with no tube using magic to keep inflated. If it’s anything besides that I think I’ll save my pennies for the next thing I break.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Tripper 10/15/2018 at 18:07

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works exactly like a car tire

but with much thinner rubber and as such easily punctured

the tires are harder to get on and off the rim too as they need a stiffer sidewall to keep airtight

(well.. its not the sidewall exactly but that metal strip right at the bottom of the sidewall)

Nom De Plume > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 18:49

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Now is the time for brutal honesty. Your current predicament was assured by buying from “Big S.” They make throwaway frames specced with their own generic parts which are equally prone towards dangerous failure. Furthermore they have corrupted cycling through their innovations in passing R&D onto the consumer. They also have a long track record of exactly the type of business practices Silicon Valley is reviled for.

Wheels and tires are what make a bike. The mistake many people make is looking at the retail ( or cumulative price of all parts) which is rarely an indicator of qualities a wheelset possesses. Which in your case need to be a good match for the riding style that naturally evolves on flat and windy terrain. What you want is a racer’ s training wheelset that was timestakingly prepared to withstand daily hard use, and grime, and weather, and any other abuse you find dishing out . How this differs from a “bombproof overbuilt indestructible marketing wank ridden” wheel is what you need to discover.  

This means close attention to tolerances. This means spending more time on preparation and fine adjustment than most would consider sane. This is where asking someone else to perform all the necessary calculations and decisions turns a $300 wheelset into a $1500 wheelset . This is where you need to start looking at where the quality for money is in robot wheels and track down a used pair in good condition.

Robots are very good at tolerances and measurements if they are given good instructions. They can tension and stress a wheel well enough to avoid that most human and currently trendy mistake. Overtensioned spokes. Mark Beaumont discovered this on one of his long distance rides when his overtly spendy one off wheels he spent months on failed spectacularly every single day after he set off. So in the middle of nowhere Poland he found himself at the mercy of a small town shop mechanic who built him a set of wheels that went the distance.

One shared property almost all metals have is weakening when being subjected to force in an alternate direction while under great amounts of stress. Thus the key with bike spokes is finding how loose you can have them and not how tight. Sure they might really zing along in town for awhile. But when that first failure happens they never stop coming. Even after a complete rebuild on the same rim and hub. No mtb rim should be so thin walled and daintily constructed it requires the strengths which high spoke tension can produce on the one exception of a very purpose built road wheel.    

What has been lacking thus far is a direct recommendation.  Which I will not give as mtb is not current passion.  Maybe Hammerhead or someone else can make a solid suggestion or two.  Or I can ask some buddies.  What I don’t want is your drunken rambling monologues on daily life to cease when your daughter’s bike breaks down from her old man riding it to and from work leaving him no time post here after walking.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Nom De Plume 10/15/2018 at 18:54

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damn... ill try not kill meself

anyhoo... i just figured out if i ride with the wheels quickrelease latch open the wobble in the axle evens out the wobble in the rim

problem solved :)

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > TheRealBicycleBuck 10/15/2018 at 18:58

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eh.... im not exactly heartbroken about that.... tho it would be cool to be near enough to join in the oppo shennanigans and meet a bunch of yous

once i have a car again that is

Nom De Plume > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 19:03

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Short form is having all the right spoke treatments and other magical stuff applied AND built right the first time means the wheels will almost never lose tension or succumb to failure.  A good robot built wheel gets you most the way there for everyday use.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Nom De Plume 10/15/2018 at 19:09

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tbh this wheel has been solid as a rock for the first 3 years i had it.. then i broke it and since then its been iffy

dunno if its coz my bike shop has shitty techs or coz i really wacked the everloving shit out of it... but i think it ded

gonna look for somekinda reinforced rear wheel... i dont mind the extra weight.. not like i got hills to worry about

(and tbh.... i should probably stop powering out of turns... sometimes i feel the bike flex when i do that)

Nom De Plume > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 19:19

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The bike should be servant to you. A little wheel flex is unavoidable but it shouldn’t detract from your ability to rail a corner or stomp on the pedals. If the frame is flexing enough to upset you I already spoke my peace there.

I think you need to find that price to quality level that gets you the  rare product made for the long haul. Most everything nowadays is made to have elevated performance at the cost of durability.

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Nom De Plume 10/15/2018 at 19:27

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i like the flex... its a novel feeling.. the bike dont seem to like it so much tho (edit.. the rear wheel dont like it much)

my frame is excellent.. no complaints there.. that thing will outlive me

need a better front fork (im thinking a reba would do the trick) and some me proof wheels.. and then this bike could be a lifer

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 19:59

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I broke spokes on a past bicycle too... though I had it heavily loaded and rode it hard.

The solution was I went to a bike shop and bought replacement wheel that had more spokes and could handle more weight.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_wheel#Number_of_spokes

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 10/15/2018 at 20:01

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yeah i probably need a few more spokes... at 120 kg im not a ligtweight

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > Future next gen S2000 owner 10/15/2018 at 20:04

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And in buying a Schwinn from Walmart, all you do is trade your money for a piece of garbage that is in the shape of a bicycle.

Manwich - now Keto-Friendly > farscythe - makin da cawfee! 10/15/2018 at 20:11

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When I broke the spokes on my rear wheel, it was from my weight plus the weight of a couple of fully packed bags that had my lunch, a change of clothes and other stuff in them.

You may want to consider a wheel used for Touring bikes... which are designed to take the weight of the rider as well as touring gear.

https://www.cyclingabout.com/the-best-rims-for-bicycle-touring/

farscythe - makin da cawfee! > Manwich - now Keto-Friendly 10/15/2018 at 20:20

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cheers :)

i mostly break mine powering thru turns.... im a torquey fucker

(well unless i break em hitting stuff)

all legs me